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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 16, 2008 6:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

Hey all: well known that vocals were overdubbed for Eur 72 (re: thread below on live vs studio), but now it has been mentioned they did the same for S&R 71 (SFuck).

This is BIG news for me. I thought they had done something with MerleS being added, BUT did not know anything about the vocals.

Anyone?

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Poster: rastamon Date: Sep 16, 2008 8:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

Without A Net was also overdubbed (at least Eyes of the World)

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Poster: fenario80 Date: Sep 16, 2008 10:10am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

You may know something I don't, but I distinctly recall a note on the Without A Net packaging that said "there are absolutely no overdubs on this recording." I can see them doing it (and don't have a problem with it), but would they outright lie about it?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 16, 2008 10:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

Boy, you learn something everyday.

Quick check of a few songs from the listing indicates to me that they did INDEED overdubb vocals on S&R!

They did not go for the "overproduction" achieved on Eur 72 in my view.

My problem with 72 was I always felt the vocal style fit Wake of the Flood more than S&R, and yet the song selection of 72 was closer to 71 than 73. In any event, the vocals on Eur 72 just seem over-refined.

Those on S&R do not, but they are played with relative to the live versions. All I can find are a few references to this overdubbing, some leaving open that they may have only done it for some songs, but now we can track down all of them and listen for the difference.

NOTE: one reviewer makes the mistake of deciding that a certain version of a song can't be the one on S&R since the vocals sound different!?!

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Sep 16, 2008 10:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

News to me about Skull and Roses as well, but not a major suprise.

I think the big problem with E72 (to my ears, anyway) was that the overdubbing and tweaking to disguise the ambience of the different venues just a got a little out of hand- the songs are great, the "performances" are great, the vocals are good (by GD standards, anyway)...but the "live-ness" has been largely bleached out in the process. It sounds like they at least showed a little more restraint on S&R.

Either way, I don't think it's that big of a deal in general, especially with the vocals (Garcia COULD be incredibly expressive at times, but neither he nor Weir was an especially talented singer, and Lesh's vocals were just downright awful live). It's nice to have some cleaned-up versions to contrast with the "warts and all" recordings
(Dick's Picks and all the unofficial stuff).

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Poster: HuaHinWharfRat Date: Sep 16, 2008 10:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

re:- "but the album was so incredibly crisp and unflawed- every song sounding like it should - just seemed too good to be live". Well, it's not as if they didn't have enough source material to select 'unflawed' versions from - if you have made secured recordings (you know what I mean) of all the available Europe '72 concerts like I have (what a brilliant box set that could be if done professionally), just in case this site disappears into a black hole, you'll know they had plenty of options for every song to choose from. OK maybe I'm being naive in thinking they wouldn't do that - prove me wrong and I'll concede. If you watch the extras from the Dead Movie, you'll see the amount of work Jerry put in to make sure it was purrrfect, but you don't see him singing along, correcting incorrect vocals. OK, they wouldn't show that anyway ..... And, OK, it's well known that Bob Weir frequently fluffs the lyrics to Truckin' and Promised Land - but he got them right often enough for them to be able to find a perfect one to commit to disc. Please God, say it's not true !!!!

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Poster: fenario80 Date: Sep 16, 2008 10:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

http://www.deaddisc.com/disc/Europe_72.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_'72

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Poster: HuaHinWharfRat Date: Sep 16, 2008 10:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

I'm gonna take the shotgun for a walk down the bottom of the garden .......

........ if you hear a shot, I may be gone for a while.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 16, 2008 10:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks all for chiming in...hope you didn't overdub

For what it's worth, I don't see the "problem" with it either, ie, overdubbing, BUT I will say that it detracts a bit from the "best live band" label in at least some sense...

What would we say if we found out that they overdubbed Jerry's leads--eliminating any mistakes, etc.?

So, I understand it is just part of the biz, but really, if you make your mark on the "live" label, it just seems to me you should stick to it on all levels...

I used to argue that LiveDead and S&R 71 VS. Eur 72 proved that the "live vocals" were better (ie, I liked the vocal sound on LDead and S&R 71 better than Eur 72) but have to rethink that one now...!

Thanks all!

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Poster: SkyDawg Date: Sep 17, 2008 1:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks all for chiming in...hope you didn't overdub

They DID edit Jerry's solo on "So Many Roads" from the So Many Roads box set and cut out a whole solo.

Europe '72 was heavily overdubbed in some places and virtually untouched on other tracks like Brown Eyed Women and others. I once listened to every song from Europe 72 from the official release and compared each one to the raw recording from the show it was actually taken from. The bulk of Europe '72 was taken mainly from Paris and final London shows (with a couple of exceptions). When played back to back the difference is noticeable on many tracks.
The most disturbing edits on Europe '72 to my ears (being a huge Pigpen lover) is that Pigpen's organ parts were nearly totally edited out as far as I can hear. Personally I enjoy Pigpen's keyboard work and felt he added a lot of color to the sound. I won't say he was great on keyboards, but he could play the keyboards better than people give him credit for. He just wasn't particularly interested in playing them!

One interesting fact is that when the Dead did the studio overdubs for Europe '72 they used the exact same equipment in the same setup as on stage with the same microphones and taping system to make it sound as seamless as possible. The biggest difference was Jerry's lead vocal on Morning Dew from 5/26/72. Jerry's voice was pretty worn out by the tours end and the vocal overdub on Europe '72 was a welcome one to my ears. It's probably my favorite Dew.

Some of the Skull & Roses tracks don't even sound like the actual performance when I compare the tapes to the album release. I don't care for that album too much. I also find Europe '72 very sterile sounding compared to the raw tapes. Taking Pigpen out of the mix was a mistake IMHO.

This post was modified by SkyDawg on 2008-09-17 08:04:21

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Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: Sep 16, 2008 7:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks all for chiming in...hope you didn't overdub

I like the E72 "Dew" as well...but I think Jerry's voice was sped up. On the vinyl album, I could see speeding up the song to save space, but it sounds sped up on the CD as well...the fact that it's an over-dub partly explains why it sounds weird, but...does it sound sped up to anyone else? What show is that "Dew" from originally, and is it here on the Archive?

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Poster: Morning Dewd Date: Sep 16, 2008 7:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks all for chiming in...hope you didn't overdub

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1972-05-26.sbd.smith.94452.sbeok.flac16

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Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: Sep 16, 2008 11:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks all for chiming in...hope you didn't overdub

Thank you muchly! Now that I listen to it, it seems a lot of altering was done to this Dew...filtering out Pig's wonderful keyboard part, eliminating Jer's raspy vocal...etc. I think the "Sugar Magnolia" from E72 was enhanced a lot too, for what it's worth... ;-)

This post was modified by Styrofoam Cueball on 2008-09-17 06:11:04

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Poster: SkyDawg Date: Sep 17, 2008 1:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks all for chiming in...hope you didn't overdub

Phil's bass was also completely overdubbed on the Europe 72 Morning Dew. I just got through playing it and on the actual tapes Phil just bombs the place during Morning Dew. The album version is more subdued and "stately".

My favorite story about this Dew is in Dennis McNally's book "Long Strange Trip" when Wizard,who recorded this show tells how he was flying on acid and left the recording truck to fix something during this performance of Morning Dew. He said that Jerry actually had tears rolling down his face while playing this Morning Dew! He was " crying like a fire in the sun" I suppose. Jerry noticed Wizard on stage and realized nobody was monitoring the tapes in the truck outside! They exchanged knowing glances and Wizard listened to Morning Dew before returning to the recording truck. Betty was taking a well deserved night off, being the last show of the tour. The band had broken out Visine bottles of LSD for the final Europe 72 show and everyone was dosed.

Months later when the Dead were in the studio assembling Europe 72 Wizard told Jerry that the Morning Dew had recorded perfectly in spite of Wizard wandering onstage rather than attending to the recorder... Cool story. Jerry hadn't forgotten what happened... "Hey Jerry, the Morning Dew is definitely happening" is what Wizard recalled telling Garcia to their mutual delight. It made the final album selection and the rest is history.

This post was modified by SkyDawg on 2008-09-17 08:02:50

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Poster: spring mountain high Date: Sep 16, 2008 10:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

doesn't seem like a big deal to me, considering they were under contract with (and indebted to) warner bros. at the time and wanted to sell some albums...also no biggie since there is a plethora of 'pure' live recordings to enjoy

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Sep 16, 2008 8:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

wow--didn't know that about w/out a net....makes sense, though...and I'm glad they did it at least for that killer version of EYES w/Branford...it'd be a shame for that version to be given anything less than a stellar rendering inc. with vocals.

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Poster: secret8476 Date: Sep 16, 2008 8:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

When i first started listening to the band, Europe 72 was one of my first albums. Until I got interested enough to really get into the music and read the inlays and stuff, I thought it was a studio album. Call me a newb at the time but the album was so incerdibly crisp and unflawed- every song sounding like it should - just seemed too good to be live.

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Poster: HuaHinWharfRat Date: Sep 16, 2008 10:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

Not sure about this string - maybe just a case of ugly rumours (not to be read backwards!). Have had Europe '72 for more years than I care to admit (err, since it was released) and I know it off by heart, note by note. I was listening to one of the french concerts recently (either Olympia theatre or Lille Fairgrounds) and spotted one or two tracks that were used from that source for Europe '72 (sorry, can't remember which and I'm not able to double check at this moment). But I will swear on my kids lives' that the songs were put on Europe '72 UNTOUCHED - either that or they over-dubbed the soundboards on this site to match as well and that is extremely unlikely. Maybe some feedback howls & similar have been edited out - but not sure about over-dubs. They were so good, they didn't need to pull stunts like that .....

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Poster: fenario80 Date: Sep 16, 2008 10:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

This is pretty well documented, at least in the case of Europe '72 they sweetened a lot of vocals; perhaps not on the particular tracks you're referencing, but most of the songs on the first three sides have been doctored quite a bit.

It's cited in the wiki, but not sourced:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_'72

This post was modified by fenario80 on 2008-09-16 17:17:56

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 16, 2008 10:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

Right; from day one when it came out in the Bay Area as a kid, everyone talked about it, it was mentioned on the radio, etc., etc., etc.; so, it always seemed absolutely clear that it had been done on Eur 72 though I can't recall that I have read anything "official" (ie, from one of the band, or an insider...ANYONE else have some more significant to cite for a reference?).

But, this was NOT the case for S&R 71. I will admit we all thought the vocals were as good as it gets, but figured they were the examples that the boys picked to insure they had the best possible sound...

Sorta lays to rest the whole debate about live vs studio on the vocal department...

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Sep 16, 2008 7:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hold the phone: over-dubbing question

Far as I know, it's true....S&R was dubbed vocally just as Europe '72 was. (and, hate to say it, but is all the better for it).